Talk:Tales of Monkey Island
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Avoid separate episode articles
[edit]Old discussion collapsed for navigation purposes
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I strongly recommend we follow the Sam & Max Save the World approach and avoid creating separate articles for each episode. The only two things that will change are plot and reception, and they will no development section. Now, it may be unlike the S&M episodes that each of these gets a lot of coverage as the first one did, but given what has happened with each of the other TTG episodic series (the first gets a lot of attention, the rest dribble out, noted but not heralded by trumpets), its unlikely there will be as much in the future. --MASEM (t) 13:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing the merge tag for now. There's no consensus to merge the article, but likewise no consensus to keep it either. I suggest we leave it as-is for the moment, but be wary of creating new episode articles later. We will need to re-evaluate this when all chapters are released and we know what direction this article is going in. -- Sabre (talk) 10:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC) Comment As with TV episodes, I still think should follow Wikipedia:Episode. In which case, it makes no difference if the story is split-up or continuous. All that matters is that the episodes receive notable coverage from outside sources that does not just include reviews. The seasons of TV shows often have one continuous arc, and stand alone episodes. It still doesn't mean we make an article for each and every episode. After all is said and done, maybe an episode or two will warrant its own article, maybe they all will, maybe none will. I agree with S@bre when he/she said ""I suggest we leave it as-is for the moment, but be wary of creating new episode articles later. We will need to re-evaluate this when all chapters are released"" 24.190.34.219 (talk) 06:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC) Comment whilst we argue, how about we at least now create an article about The Siege of Spinner Cay? --Victory93 (talk) 09:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC) Further Comment I've been comparing between an episode of Sam & Max and an episode of Tales and there are differences. An episode of Tales has longer gameplay than episode of Sam & Max. A Tales episode has different music tracks than Sam & Max. An episode of Sam & Max has at least 4 to 5 different tracks whilst an episode of Tales at least 6 to 9. Each episode of Tales is written by different writers. In Tales, nearly every character you meet has a deep in-depth backstory which the character tells that including the subject of the episode whilst in Sam & Max, the character just usualay talks about what's the subject of the episode. Also each episode of Tales has been accompined by a what if cartoon. So these are just some reasons to why Tales should have individual articles about each episode. --Victory93 (talk) 09:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
This argument has gone too long. Now if we made all into one article than seperate articles, the page would be too long. Seperate articles about each episode is sufficient. Now can we end this didcussion and create articles for the rest of the episodes. This argument is going back to before the first episode was even released so now that you can see the episodes now are bigger than what expected before so be safe to say, have seperate articles for each. Plus if you episode 1, dealt with more one entire island exploration. Episode 2, an entire region of islands to sale through. Episode 3, trapped inside a giant creature and exploring underwater. And also, those who disagree, have you even played any of the episodes? --Victory93 (talk) 01:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Game plan for after full release[edit]
Why no seperate episode articles?[edit]My recent creation of the articles for episode 2-4 has been deleted with the rationale that a consensus had been reached to wait until the series is complete. I can see no such consensus, only 4 people who are for merging, 4 people who are against it with no decision reached. Waiting for the whole series to complete has been mentioned, but was not voted on. As always, since having more articles on Wikipedia does not hurt anyone, I would suggest creating the articles. People who are for merging can work on the main article and ignore the rest, there is no harm in having additional information. Reasons for having separate articles:
Should no decision be reached now, please remember for the future that started versions for each article can be found in the history. --Vnci (talk) 23:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
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The situation
[edit]Alright, I've been bold and redirected the painfully and incurably underdeveloped LotSN article to here: given that all four sources and by extension all relevant real-world information from that page are already in this article, no further merging is required. I'm going to take a few minutes to explain this rationale, based on the situation regarding to sourcing, redundancy and presentation of information. This move is liable to be unpopular with the Monkey Island fans who don't fully understand how Wikipedia is meant to deal with articles on fictional works, which is why I am doing this summary.
- First up, it is simply the case that there is no coverage out there to create a proper development section for the individual episodes. The development of a work is an major and essential part of any article regarding fiction, and its absence is highly damaging to any attempt to write any meaningful article: the fact that no attempt has been made at all to add any such information in the last few months is very representative of the situation in this regard. I've scoured the web and print sources pretty thoroughly for development information in general for my work with this article, but there simply isn't anything useful for individual episodes: all development information, as is the case with all of Telltale's other games, is entirely centered around development at a season level. The closest I came across was a set of interviews with Armato, but these merely show Armato's own opinions of the episodes, rather than any insight into the development process. With all development information focused on the season as a whole, there's no choice but to consolidate it here.
- Now, a minority of people have been saying previously that the fact that each episode has a different writer, different themes, etc is enough development information. That is not the case. Most of this information, without any further elaboration, is worthless at the individual episode level, and can (and where sourceable is already) accomodated here. Its all very well to say that "each episode has a different theme", but without any properly sourced elaboration on that, there's nothing more that can be said than literally "each episode has a different theme" in this article.
- The second major point of real-world information to deal with is a work's reception. Now, the initial glance at the situation seems favourable towards individual episodes: each episode is reviewed individually by the media. There have been some in past discussions that argue that reviews do not establish notability according to our guidelines. I disagree with this, reviews do establish notability, but the issue here is not notability. It is the presentation of information. The point in hand here is how reviews deal with both individual episodes and the season as a whole, and they don't deal with the season. GameRankings lists only one review for the entire of TMI, and though there are a couple from other reliable sources, there simply is not enough to create a fully indepth discussion of the season as a whole as you can see in Sam & Max Save the World. Therefore, the only alternative is to build up the reception section in this article around summarising the reviews of each episode. This creates a major redundancy with spinning out pages for each episode, as all an individual episode article can do is repeat the exact same information already present in this article. Heck, the reception sections between the LotSN and this article were copy-and-pasted with the same three sources until I rewrote and expanded the depth of the reception of chapter 1 earlier today. There's simply no point to having an article which is only capable of regurgitating the exact same information that's already present in the article in the tier above it. Note that the reception section in this article is not complete at present, since I still have to write up the remaining four episodes plus a few other bits, but it easily provides stronger coverage than the copy-and-paste section in the LotSN article that just gave three reviews.
- Plot has been cited as a reason by some for spinning out to individual episode articles. This is simply not a valid reason for such an action on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not the place for plot repetition, as the focus is meant to be on the real-world aspects of a work. A concise (that bit is key) plot summary is included in articles as it is deemed necessary for a comprehensive article and setting out the basic context for readers to understand when we refer to the plot in development or reception. Yes, there are plenty of other articles out there that only consist of plot, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia isn't fully constructed yet and as such, most of the articles on this site are flawed and for some reason or another do not meet our quality standards at present. We should be wary of knowningly creating more flawed articles on the basis of already existing articles in dire need of cleanup. Anyone coming here looking for a more indepth plot summary is simply in the wrong place: those fans amongst you who want a full blow by blow account of the plot of each episode are better advised to participate with the Monkey Island Wikia instead of here, since there is better suited for those sorts of contributions—a link to that site can be provided in the external links to direct readers who want that sort of content to the correct venue. In addition, the fact that each episode is part of an ongoing story just chopped into five bits rather than five self-contained episodes makes writing individual episode articles in regard to plot very disjointed.
- As I've covered all other major sections of a video game article, I might as well cover the gameplay as well. Since there's no meaningful change in gameplay between any of the episodes, each episode would be repeating its sister articles and this one in regards to gameplay and thus would be completely redundant. Thankfully short, that one.
So there you have it. I've tried to make that as clear and readable as I can. I would ask that such articles are not restored unless the major issues I've presented here can be resolved and a decent article can actually emerge from it (which, certainly if other TTG games are anything to go by, is simply not possible). The basic jist of that is simply that the sourcing situation simply does not lend itself to the creation of any meaningful episode articles, as key information needed for quality article construction is non-existent even after six months, and any other real-world information is simply redundant to what is already in this article. Plot simply isn't an acceptable reason for spinning out, though Wikipedia can provide a link to the Monkey Island Wikia for those fans who want to read all the indepth plot details of each episode. -- Sabre (talk) 01:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Subdividing synopsis
[edit]This morning I subdivided the synopsis into different chapters, and got reverted because the narrative is continuous
I did not split up the synopsis because the game comes in different episodes (note that I used the word "chapter" and not "episode" on purpose), but because the synopsis is already about 40 lines long. Imagine after release of episode 5, is it going to be 100 lines long (one and a half screen for me) ? No one would want to read it 90.39.199.125 (talk) 09:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
- The synopsis needs shortening in its current form into a more concise version, the reason I removed it is because subdividing it like that can encourage people to lengthen it further. Ideally, the final plot section, covering all five episodes after episode 5 is released should be around 500 words with three or four paragraphs, as is recommended in our manual of style for this sort of stuff. -- Sabre (talk) 09:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, agreed 90.39.199.125 (talk) 13:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Referencing: European WiiWare release dates
[edit]I've just shoved up some references for the release dates in the table, for the Windows and American WiiWare dates. However, I'm having trouble finding references for the European WiiWare release dates. Telltale Games' own news doesn't cover the European releases of chapters one and four, and I can't find backup ones elsewhere. If anyone else can provide decent references for these dates, that would be much appreciated. -- Sabre (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Lack of references to Escape From Monkey Island?
[edit]I've finished playing this game, and I couldn't help but notice how this game went out of its way to avoid referencing Escape From Monkey Island. For example, in "The Trial and Execution of Guybrush Threepwood," when Elaine goes to the stand as a witness, she explicitly mentions what happened to her in the first three games - but makes no mention whatsoever of what happened in Escape. In fact, she cuts directly to talking about comparatively trivial matters. There are no references to Herman Toothrot, Elaine's continuity-confused grandfather, Ozzie Mandril, etc. Just about all of the series-related recurring jokes relate to the first three games. The only possible references I heard to Escape was in the last chapter when Guybrush mentions that LeChuck took the form of a giant statue, and one of the earlier chapters where Guybrush said that something look like clothing for a dingo. Did anyone else notice this? Personally, I think this is no accident because of the negative fan reaction to Escape's plot holes. I feel that this observation deserves at least a little more research, if not a brief mention. --WizardOfTheCDrive (talk) 21:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
- If you've got reliable sources (ie not fansites, but the video game media or published information from designers like Grossman or Stemmle) that comment on it, then perhaps there may be a place for it in the reception or development sections; however, if not, such information has no place in the article. In any case, the argument sort of falls flat on its face immediately given that the Ultimate Insult is referenced within the first puzzle of the first chapter. -- Sabre (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- No actually the last episode references Escape. Guybrush mentions that he fought a giant statue of LeChuck and an aussie land developer. --Victory93 (talk) 10:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
The wait, cancellation, disappointment
[edit]Several years ago, I read that when LucasArts was approached with the question "Will there be a Monkey Island 5?", they laughed and remained silent on the issue. Fans of Monkey Island were hugely disappointed with this, especially since there had been rumor around 2004 or 2005 that the idea had been abandoned entirely. I figured this information is relevant to the article, so I did a bit of research and came up with a bit. I also managed to revive some paragraphs from an old version of the Monkey Island article that seemed pertinent.
I would appreciate if anyone could verify the "rumor" that the game was in fact scheduled for a July 2005 release and then cancelled. If you can verify this, please replace the IGN Boards reference with a more reliable one, possibly a press release or something. Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 22:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate the effort, but as I said in the talk page message a few minutes ago, that information isn't actually relevant to this project, because the alleged 2004 project was not Tales of Monkey Island but an entirely separate effort that had nothing to do with any of this project's development. As its a separate project, the best place for this information would be the series article, rather than here; feel free to add it over there. -- Sabre (talk) 23:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- What I've read suggests that Telltale Games actually broke off from LucasArts in the hopes of bringing back the adventure games, so this actually in a sense was the same project (best I can tell), revised and delayed as it may have been. However, without valid sources, I can't say too much here. By the way, thank you for not templating, I'm impressed...it's rare to see an editor revert and take the time to explain their rationale. :) Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 00:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Telltale certainly did split off from LucasArts to continue adventure game development, but that was over Sam & Max: Freelance Police, which was before this MI5 project. Actually, Freelance Police provides a suitable point of comparison; after Telltale left LucasArts, they resurrected the Sam & Max franchise with a Sam & Max sequel. But this sequel was not Sam & Max: Freelance Police, TTG did all the work from scratch to create Sam & Max Save the World. The same thing has happened here, TTG has resurrected a franchise, a franchise that's last effort resulted in a sequel that was never released, but they did the work from scratch and in a different direction from that previous, unsuccessful project.
- The sources we've got for TMI show that TTG created everything for this project in late 2008 and onwards, LucasArts only involvement was to give the rubber stamp for content, rather than giving them whatever was left of the old project and telling them to complete it. But yeah, if we've got information on this earlier MI5 project that's citable, series article is definitely the place for it; for comparison, that's how we dealt with the similiar situation for Plunge Through Space and the SCUMM sequel to Hit the Road in the Sam & Max article. -- Sabre (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
"After the series ended"?
[edit]Your article on Tales of Monkey Island stated that "Ports for Mac OS X and the PlayStation Network were released several months after the series ended." But I have heard talk in the Telltale Games forums that Tales may have a second season in about a year or so. Is Tales only the first season in the series? --Angeldeb82 (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're slightly misreading the sentence there. By "the series ended", we mean the run of five episodes that make up Tales of Monkey Island ended, not that the Monkey Island franchise ended. There may well be another sequel/season in due course (but neither LEC or TTG has announced no such thing), but there aren't going to be any more episodes added to this run. -- Sabre (talk) 19:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
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